Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu »

Judging by the replies the previous chapters have gotten, this is probably an unpopular opinion. But I'm absolutely 100% sure that Monsoon crying over Sirius proves absolutely nothing.

Never, not even once, has he shown anything even resembling remorse for all the lives he's taken, including those of his own kin. He's just crying because he broke his favorite toy, and Orion is absolutely right: he does not have a conscience, never has, never will. He's not even owning up to that it was his fault that he (supposedly) killed Sirius, instead making up ridiculous excuses like "my arm just went crazy", because having a conscience would actually mean having the ability to recognize your own mistakes, something that Monsoon clearly lacks. Even Hougen cried over Genba's death and he was completely rotten to the core otherwise, and we haven't had a single indication that Monsoon is any different.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Shining Sirius »

Well, FUCK you too Orion.

Seriously?! Even although Monsoon's standing there crying, everybody, including Weed who used to live by the "if we kill for vengeance, wars will never end" mentality, is now in denial that Monsoon does indeed have a heart, of which Sirius managed to break the seal? Violent impulses can be a thing amongst trauma victims, especially people with PTSD. That doesn't make them bad people. Unless the story is implying that Monsoon has Alien Hand Syndrome. :derpgin:
Also, I am physically angry with Gin's quote of "I don't have the power to (stop Orion)". Gin... your grandson is collapsed in the snow trembling from blood-loss in front of you and you're just going to shout at him and completely refuse to grant him a dying wish by halting his violently frenzied brother's advances even temporarily? Gin, you're also the child who frequently bent the rules of your own father's army and that of his troops to do what you wanted and now you're like; yeah, I'm prepared to let one of my grandkids die on the cold ground sobbing and let the other one attack the stationary threat by himself potentially throwing away his adolescent life for the sake of us impossibly old dogs because... reasons? C'mon Gin, you were the one that championed teamwork against Akakabuto's bears but were also smart enough to know when to back off from a fight and regroup. Gin, you suck as a grandfather.
You know, I'm beginning to think that the majority of the Ohu army is scared of Orion... heck, back at the end of GDW:O, even if someone had an objection to how he was dealing with Masamune, they didn't speak up. :|

Anyhow, I'm rambling. Thank you Fanta for another chapter! :heart:
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Rusty »

Digsu wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:56 pm Judging by the replies the previous chapters have gotten, this is probably an unpopular opinion. But I'm absolutely 100% sure that Monsoon crying over Sirius proves absolutely nothing.

Never, not even once, has he shown anything even resembling remorse for all the lives he's taken, including those of his own kin. He's just crying because he broke his favorite toy, and Orion is absolutely right: he does not have a conscience, never has, never will. He's not even owning up to that it was his fault that he (supposedly) killed Sirius, instead making up ridiculous excuses like "my arm just went crazy", because having a conscience would actually mean having the ability to recognize your own mistakes, something that Monsoon clearly lacks. Even Hougen cried over Genba's death and he was completely rotten to the core otherwise, and we haven't had a single indication that Monsoon is any different.
Agreed.

Also, I'm just going to ignore Gin's line about not having enough power to stop Orion. If we remember, Gin faced down bears while technically blind. Orion is such a god damn Gary Stu he has no weaknesses at all right Yoshi?? C'mon my dude.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Shiruba »

I hate the fact that practically nobody cares that Sirius collapsed despite him being Weed's son. Every time someone collapsed in GDW everyone made a big deal about it.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Dragon »

Shiruba wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:54 pm I hate the fact that practically nobody cares that Sirius collapsed despite him being Weed's son. Every time someone collapsed in GDW everyone made a big deal about it.
That's so true. And it's not like Sirius is some random character, he's the eldest son of, basically, their king. He's practically a prince, dying in front of his whole army, and no one cares to help him up or carry him away.
I feel like, if anything, this is just more proof of Yoshi needing a break to think about these things more. It feels more like he's going through a checking list of things he want to happen, and not the cause and effect of events.

I know Monsoon never showed true consciousness before until now, but I think this was suppose to be the moment of him first showing any signs of it. His kin he saw as mere underlings to use for his revenge, and from there on, death was just the norm for him. Sirius showed him what it was like to be cared for, trusted, and to have fun (although Monsoon was pretty violent during it lol). Toy or friend, Monsoon actually had an attachment to someone, to the point of licking them with care and excitement. He still grew up with trauma and hate, so his impulses and outbursts still feel realistic. I still felt bad seeing him cry and try shaking off the blame childishly. He was close to learning to be less angry, but we know the results...

If anyone was written interestingly throughout this arc, it's definitely been Monsoon. He was an interesting villain in this series.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Tora »

As much as I wanna feel for Monsoon here... I just can't, for reason Digsu already pointed out.

And thank you Fanta and Kasi! ^^
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken »

Digsu wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:56 pm Judging by the replies the previous chapters have gotten, this is probably an unpopular opinion. But I'm absolutely 100% sure that Monsoon crying over Sirius proves absolutely nothing.

Never, not even once, has he shown anything even resembling remorse for all the lives he's taken, including those of his own kin. He's just crying because he broke his favorite toy, and Orion is absolutely right: he does not have a conscience, never has, never will. He's not even owning up to that it was his fault that he (supposedly) killed Sirius, instead making up ridiculous excuses like "my arm just went crazy", because having a conscience would actually mean having the ability to recognize your own mistakes, something that Monsoon clearly lacks. Even Hougen cried over Genba's death and he was completely rotten to the core otherwise, and we haven't had a single indication that Monsoon is any different.
I absolutely agree! Monsoon even said himself that he views Sirius as toy. Kinda similar as Wulf does to Hump in Jack London's novel ''Sea Wolf'' (if anyone has read it).
So, Sirius is basically an upgrade of Bob to him. Also, remember what he did to Bob's sister and other siblings? None of them were fighting or even defying him. Monsoon just tortured them for fun.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Eclipse-Wolven »

Digsu wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:56 pm Judging by the replies the previous chapters have gotten, this is probably an unpopular opinion. But I'm absolutely 100% sure that Monsoon crying over Sirius proves absolutely nothing.

Never, not even once, has he shown anything even resembling remorse for all the lives he's taken, including those of his own kin. He's just crying because he broke his favorite toy, and Orion is absolutely right: he does not have a conscience, never has, never will. He's not even owning up to that it was his fault that he (supposedly) killed Sirius, instead making up ridiculous excuses like "my arm just went crazy", because having a conscience would actually mean having the ability to recognize your own mistakes, something that Monsoon clearly lacks. Even Hougen cried over Genba's death and he was completely rotten to the core otherwise, and we haven't had a single indication that Monsoon is any different.
Eh...I'm not so sure about that. Given the fact that Sirius was the only person basically to ever even attempt to be kind to him, it makes sense that he might actually care for him (as more than a toy that is). Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that he can be or deserves to be saved, especially given the crimes he's committed, but saying that he lacks a conscience entirely isn't exactly accurate in my opinion.

He always seemed somewhat similar to Kaibutsu to me. Basically one person ever shows him kindness so he actually cares about that person. Everyone else is utterly expendable because they didn't. Both Kaibutsu and Monsoon sort of operated on that mentality from what I can tell.

Finally, I find it deeply ironic that the Ohu Army is in literally the same situation they were in during the final battle with Hougen, but instead of taking the high road as was advocated back then (by multiple high ranking dogs), now they're just gonna kill the heavily outnumbered and crying opponent in front of their own member who is using the same philosophy Weed himself preached back then. Gin claiming that he can't and won't stop Orion is just icing on the cake.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by YamaDora »

Eclipse-Wolven wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:02 pmGiven the fact that Sirius was the only person basically to ever even attempt to be kind to him, it makes sense that he might actually care for him (as more than a toy that is). Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that he can be or deserves to be saved, especially given the crimes he's committed, but saying that he lacks a conscience entirely isn't exactly accurate in my opinion.
Thank you, finally someone was able to put my exact thoughts into words!

This whole situation is morally very intriguing, to say the very least. This is not really any different from Riki leading Ouu army against Akakabuto and his minions and slaughtering the bears brutally. This time there is just someone who actually wants to believe in peace between dogs and bears, and had some evidence (Shion having bear friends, Chibi) that it could be possible...but Monsoon himself is not redeemable. Though, Sirius also had a point that killing Monsoon will just create more hatred (I mean, that's basically how Monsoon became what he was). In short, there really wasn't an easy, good solution to get out of this situation.
If there indeed will be more Ginga after this, it would be very interesting if some characters took Sirius' words and ideals in heart and tries to build connection between dogs and bears. That'd be cool to see, at least in my opinion. Something more peaceful after all these wars...and this was called The Last Wars, after all.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Leomonade »

To me, it's really sad how the Ohu army only sees Monsoon as Akakabuto II. I don't think they even know Monsoon wants to take revenge.. and is not just "another huge crazy bear". Akakabuto, if I'm correct, went insane after Gohei shot him in the head. Monsoon is misguided and a cruel bastard but he has changed quite a lot since he was first introduced.. I can't help but think that he is a tsundere! XP

Something I just realized too was how similar Gin and Monsoon actually are.

Both saw their parent killed as a young cub. (Riki didn't die then but everyone thought he did)
Both swear to take revenge.
Both see their parent's murder's species as an enemy. (Gin hates bears, Monsoon hates dogs)
Both kill/attack individuals not related to their parent's demise. (Monsoon kills dogs, Gin kills bears) (You might argue that Gin didn't kill children as Monsoon did, but killing a mother bear and abandoning the surviving 2 cubs to the woods is pretty much a death sentence. John murdering the cubs might have been more merciful...)
Both raise an army to finish off their enemy for good.
Both are also in the commanding role of the said army.

Yet... Monsoon is evil while Gin is a hero.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by YamaDora »

Limonzy wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:31 pmAkakabuto, if I'm correct, went insane after Gohei shot him in the head.
He definitely was a problem bear before that (attacked cattle and people) but Gohee's bullet in his brain was apparently the reason for a lot of his weird behaviour afterwards.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken »

YamaDora wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:56 am
Limonzy wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:31 pmAkakabuto, if I'm correct, went insane after Gohei shot him in the head.
He definitely was a problem bear before that (attacked cattle and people) but Gohee's bullet in his brain was apparently the reason for a lot of his weird behaviour afterwards.
I think he only grew BIG because of bullet.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Shining Sirius »

Limonzy wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:31 pm Something I just realized too was how similar Gin and Monsoon actually are.

Both saw their parent killed as a young cub. (Riki didn't die then but everyone thought he did)
Both swear to take revenge.
Both see their parent's murder's species as an enemy. (Gin hates bears, Monsoon hates dogs)
Both kill/attack individuals not related to their parent's demise. (Monsoon kills dogs, Gin kills bears) (You might argue that Gin didn't kill children as Monsoon did, but killing a mother bear and abandoning the surviving 2 cubs to the woods is pretty much a death sentence. John murdering the cubs might have been more merciful...)
Both raise an army to finish off their enemy for good.
Both are also in the commanding role of the said army.

Yet... Monsoon is evil while Gin is a hero.
:derpgin:
Whoa, you're right. That's some mind-boggling analysis there, Limonzy. I never realised how many similarities they share until you've pointed that out. I guess the Ohu army are not only bloodthirsty but are also inherently racist... especially Sunny and Maru, those little brats need a can of whoop-ass opened on their hides by their father. :EMPTY:
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu »

Limonzy wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:31 pm Yet... Monsoon is evil while Gin is a hero.
That could have something to do with the fact that Gin never tortured bears or rounded them up like cattle to be eaten and never became a tyrannical ruler who controlled other dogs through fear alone, thought of his followers as nothing but pawns, or killed other dogs for funzies.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by YamaDora »

Shining Sirius wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:27 amI guess the Ohu army are not only bloodthirsty but are also inherently racist...
That reminds me the one time in hybrid arc where Liger and his friends doesn't ask help from Ouu army because they're not pure breed dogs and apparently all Ouu's higher ups are pure breed so they wouldn't care about not pure breed dogs.
Of course this was proven false when Weed and others helped them anyway and Weed himself isn't even a pure breed akita
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Atha »

Digsu wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:26 pm
Limonzy wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:31 pm Yet... Monsoon is evil while Gin is a hero.
That could have something to do with the fact that Gin never tortured bears or rounded them up like cattle to be eaten and never became a tyrannical ruler who controlled other dogs through fear alone, thought of his followers as nothing but pawns, or killed other dogs for funzies.
Yukimura did that though.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu »

Atha wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:26 pm
Digsu wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:26 pm
Limonzy wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:31 pm Yet... Monsoon is evil while Gin is a hero.
That could have something to do with the fact that Gin never tortured bears or rounded them up like cattle to be eaten and never became a tyrannical ruler who controlled other dogs through fear alone, thought of his followers as nothing but pawns, or killed other dogs for funzies.
Yukimura did that though.
Yes, and he was treated as evil until he realized he'd made a horrible mistake thinking all the monkeys were evil. He also treated his followers fairly, unlike Monsoon.

All that said, though, I do feel he got off way too easy in the end, being regarded as a hero (even by the monkeys) when he'd been basically attempting genocide for most of his short life.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Uru »

Shining Sirius wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:25 pm Well, FUCK you too Orion.

Seriously?! Even although Monsoon's standing there crying, everybody, including Weed who used to live by the "if we kill for vengeance, wars will never end" mentality, is now in denial that Monsoon does indeed have a heart, of which Sirius managed to break the seal? Violent impulses can be a thing amongst trauma victims, especially people with PTSD. That doesn't make them bad people. Unless the story is implying that Monsoon has Alien Hand Syndrome. :derpgin:
Also, I am physically angry with Gin's quote of "I don't have the power to (stop Orion)". Gin... your grandson is collapsed in the snow trembling from blood-loss in front of you and you're just going to shout at him and completely refuse to grant him a dying wish by halting his violently frenzied brother's advances even temporarily? Gin, you're also the child who frequently bent the rules of your own father's army and that of his troops to do what you wanted and now you're like; yeah, I'm prepared to let one of my grandkids die on the cold ground sobbing and let the other one attack the stationary threat by himself potentially throwing away his adolescent life for the sake of us impossibly old dogs because... reasons? C'mon Gin, you were the one that championed teamwork against Akakabuto's bears but were also smart enough to know when to back off from a fight and regroup. Gin, you suck as a grandfather.
You know, I'm beginning to think that the majority of the Ohu army is scared of Orion... heck, back at the end of GDW:O, even if someone had an objection to how he was dealing with Masamune, they didn't speak up. :|

Anyhow, I'm rambling. Thank you Fanta for another chapter! :heart:
I can't understand why Gin isn't doing anything, but even worst is when Weed, Akame and Unsai are all looking at different way when Sirius tries to get help. Atleast Gin said something and did just not pretend that he couldn't see Sirius.

I honestly feel bad that TLW had to end so quickly. If there was bit more time moments like Weed fainting, Sirius asking for help, Monsoon crying etc. would be so awesome.

I have to say, I really like TLW even thought it has it's faults. Monsoon is really interesting villain and there is so much interesting things going on now.

I completly agree with Shining Sirius: it feels like everyone in Ohu army is afraid of Orion. And he is scary character if you think about it: he learns fast, he is strong and fast and also very stubborn and violent. If Ginga was darker (and more complicated) story I could imagine that Orion would be the villain at some point. And he would make great villain: Orion doesn't think he is evil. He thinks that others all soft and only he knows true justice. All other villains in Ginga have been evil and they have known it by themself too.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu »

Uru wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 8:19 pm And he would make great villain: Orion doesn't think he is evil. He thinks that others all soft and only he knows true justice. All other villains in Ginga have been evil and they have known it by themself too.
Not really: Masamune just wanted to fulfill his clan's dream of conquering Japan and earnestly believed that his way of ruling would eventually lead to peace. He just happened to believe that brutally murdering anyone even slightly in his way, even if they were children or his own family, was an acceptable way to do it.

Orion is basically one or two violent outbursts away from becoming Masamune 2.0 and that's more than a little scary.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Hyzenthlay Rose »

Honestly I really like the idea of Orion turning into a villain just because of how dark it is. But that's most likely never gonna happen :T
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