Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Sun May 19, 2019 12:05 pm

Uru wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:58 am
Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:45 am
The other dogs had no proof other than Sirius, who is about as far from unbiased as you can get, telling them that Monsoon can be reasoned with. They're now seeing Monsoon trying to protect Sirius, which is actual, concrete proof that he doesn't view him only as food. Even Monsoon striking Sirius in the first place could be excused if someone realized that he was probably aiming at Andy, who literally looks like a carbon copy of the dog who caused him his trauma in the first place.

And yeah, tell the dangerous, remorseless monster who's just seen the one person in the world he somehow feels something almost like affection to run away. Tell him to run away, so he can keep killing and torturing others for funzies until the end of time. Tell him to run away so that no dog in Japan can sleep soundly at night, but hey, anything to keep the poor widdle misunderstood serial killer from feeling offended.

Sirius is literally nothing but a complete and utter Purity Sue.
The fact that Sirius and Shion returned alive after speaking with Monsoon is not proof? Also Akakama, Gennai and other dogs saw Sirius and Monsoon getting along. Monsoon also stopped attacking them when Sirius asked. There is plenty of proof, but Orion and others refuse to see it.
And is there any proof for dogs now that Monsoon is trying to protect Sirius and not eat/finish him off? Orion attacked at Monsoon, when he lifted Sirius gently from the ground.
No one of the dogs have mentioned about Andy looking like John so they probably won't realize that kind of things.

Well, what do you think Sirius should do if the running away with Monsoon is not an option? Tell him to kill everyone? Fight back? Or just stand still and let dogs kill him?
Running away is the best choice as it gives everyone change to survive and maybe stop for a moment and calm down.

Sirius is all annoying vegan hippie trying to save the world, but it doesn't change the fact that the Ouu army is the real villain at this point.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Akakama and them actually seeing Sirius and Monsoon getting along. My bad.

I just feel like it's way, way too heavy-handed that even when he's bleeding to death, he's still only thinking about Monsoon and literally can't see or hear anybody but him. Like yeah, we get it, he's a goody-goody little pacifist, but it's just getting a bit ridiculous.

Anyway I think I'm just going to agree to disagree here because I don't want to flood an entire page with my angry Sirius salt. :EMPTY:



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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Limonzy » Sun May 19, 2019 1:17 pm

I just want to point out that none of the dogs knows the real reason Monsoon attacked Ohu.
All the dogs think it's because he is Akakabuto's kin, "an aggressive bloodhungry bear from birth".
I can't remember if Monsoon told Sirius.. but I'm pretty sure the Ohu army or at least Gin and Weed would act differently if they knew Monsoon wanted revenge on them for murdering his mother and siblings.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Shining Sirius » Sun May 19, 2019 1:30 pm

Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:17 pm
I just want to point out that none of the dogs knows the real reason Monsoon attacked Ohu.
All the dogs think it's because he is Akakabuto's kin, "an aggressive bloodhungry bear from birth".
I can't remember if Monsoon told Sirius.. but I'm pretty sure the Ohu army or at least Gin and Weed would act differently if they knew Monsoon wanted revenge on them for murdering his mother and siblings.
Sirius knows - he stated early on into the volumes that the old soldiers committing genocide against the bears is the reason why Monsoon is the way he is (which provokes Orion into calling him disrespectful - pot and kettle much?). I think that the rest of the army who've heard the legend of Gin and Akakabuto are aware of Monsoon's history... they just don't care because he's a bear, not a dog. Actually, come to think of it, none of the Ohu army particularly cared when they heard Hougen and Genba's traumatic backstory either. :|
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken » Sun May 19, 2019 1:49 pm

Traumatic past does not excuse terrible behavior. Monsoon ripped off Bob's sisters legs and left her that way, he killed his brothers in front of him, he pierced his jaw and swung him around like a fish or something. He's tortured defenseless puppies that never challenged him or tried to hurt him. He murdered Chibi's mother right in front of him and wanted to kill him too, and he supposedly had no hatred towards fellow bears, right?
Pretty much all Ohu army dogs got some traumatic past, but that doesn't make them evil. One thing is killing your enemies (this is war, Weed!), but torturing for fun is no way excusable. Even other villains, with the exception of Hougen, never did such thing. Yeah, Masamune tortured too, but that was for information not for fun. And Hougen, much like Monsoon, tortured others just for fun (Nero and John to name a few).
There's this quote that says ''all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing'' and that really applies to this whole Sirius-Monsoon-Orion dilemma. If Monsoon was left alone, he would just eventually come back again and do more damage.
Also, Monsoon has repeatedly said that he sees Sirius only as an awesome toy, and he has no regrets for his past crimes.
In real world, Sirius would actually be charged for aiding a serial-killer and maniac, and supporting him AND excusing & justifying his crimes. Sure, he's got the best intentions, and he's a good person, but he's still too naive.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Sun May 19, 2019 2:09 pm

Kaiken wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:49 pm
In real world, Sirius would actually be charged for aiding a serial-killer and maniac, and supporting him AND excusing & justifying his crimes. Sure, he's got the best intentions, and he's a good person, but he's still too naive.
Adding to this, if this were the real world, Monsoon could actually be helped. Humanity has the means to help severely mentally ill people, and the right meds and trained professionals could be capable of making Monsoon into a stable, non-murderous person. (and no, one idiot who thinks he can bring about world peace by talking about sunshine and rainbows does not count as a "trained professional")

But since he and the people dealing with him are animals, there's essentially only two options for dealing with him: kill him, or let him go and hope he won't do bad things again. The latter is naturally a massive gamble that's probably just going to make things worse, so the former is honestly the only effective course of action.



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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Limonzy » Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 pm

Shining Sirius wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:30 pm
Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:17 pm
I just want to point out that none of the dogs knows the real reason Monsoon attacked Ohu.
All the dogs think it's because he is Akakabuto's kin, "an aggressive bloodhungry bear from birth".
I can't remember if Monsoon told Sirius.. but I'm pretty sure the Ohu army or at least Gin and Weed would act differently if they knew Monsoon wanted revenge on them for murdering his mother and siblings.
Sirius knows - he stated early on into the volumes that the old soldiers committing genocide against the bears is the reason why Monsoon is the way he is (which provokes Orion into calling him disrespectful - pot and kettle much?). I think that the rest of the army who've heard the legend of Gin and Akakabuto are aware of Monsoon's history... they just don't care because he's a bear, not a dog. Actually, come to think of it, none of the Ohu army particularly cared when they heard Hougen and Genba's traumatic backstory either. :|
No, he actually thinks the reason they are fighting is the territory.
Sirius realizes the only reason Akakabuto and the dogs became enemies in the first place was when human and their pet dogs moved to the area.
Nobody ever mentions Monsoon's trauma?

With Hougen and Gemba.. The Ohu dogs take pride in their relationships with their comrades. Even though Hougen and Gemba's life was horriblöe in the cage, the Ohu army would have probably chosen to die together. So they think what the Great Dane brothers did was dishonorable.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Sun May 19, 2019 2:43 pm

Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 pm
No, he actually thinks the reason they are fighting is the territory.
Sirius realizes the only reason Akakabuto and the dogs became enemies in the first place was when human and their pet dogs moved to the area.
The village of Higashinaruse was founded in 1889 (thanks, Wikipedia). Humans and dogs had been living in the area for at least a century before Akakabuto was even born, so if anything, he was encroaching on human territory.



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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Limonzy » Sun May 19, 2019 3:17 pm

Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:43 pm
Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 pm
No, he actually thinks the reason they are fighting is the territory.
Sirius realizes the only reason Akakabuto and the dogs became enemies in the first place was when human and their pet dogs moved to the area.
The village of Higashinaruse was founded in 1889 (thanks, Wikipedia). Humans and dogs had been living in the area for at least a century before Akakabuto was even born, so if anything, he was encroaching on human territory.
The humans and the Village are not high in the mountain where Akakabuto lives. However, more hunters and winter tourist started to go deeper and deeper into the bears' territory.
Though, if I remember correctly, Akakabuto never wanted revenge on the dogs? They multiple times wrote how it hated Gohee and refused to sleep in the winter because of the thirst for revenge for the eye Gohee shot.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Sun May 19, 2019 3:33 pm

Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:17 pm
Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:43 pm
Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 pm
No, he actually thinks the reason they are fighting is the territory.
Sirius realizes the only reason Akakabuto and the dogs became enemies in the first place was when human and their pet dogs moved to the area.
The village of Higashinaruse was founded in 1889 (thanks, Wikipedia). Humans and dogs had been living in the area for at least a century before Akakabuto was even born, so if anything, he was encroaching on human territory.
The humans and the Village are not high in the mountain where Akakabuto lives. However, more hunters and winter tourist started to go deeper and deeper into the bears' territory.
Though, if I remember correctly, Akakabuto never wanted revenge on the dogs? They multiple times wrote how it hated Gohee and refused to sleep in the winter because of the thirst for revenge for the eye Gohee shot.
He didn't "refuse" to sleep in the winter, the damage to his central nervous system made him incapable of doing it.

Akakabuto wasn't really about revenge, he just wanted to establish his own territory in Futago Pass and didn't care who or what he had to kill in the process.

Also there's nothing in GNG suggesting that Akakabuto became aggressive because humans were suddenly showing up in his territory. GDR outright uses the wording that he "appeared" in Ohu one day, and he was already notorious enough in Aomori and Iwate to have his own names in the areas. So he was basically known for wreaking havoc in two separate prefectures before he appeared in Akita and started killing livestock there, so the humans of Ohu simply couldn't have wandered into his territory. Also the only source of the "Akakabuto was only evil because territory" claim is Sirius, who has no issues pulling facts out of his backside to "support" his arguments as seen in his infamous "Monsoon usually eats birds and rabbits" brainfart.



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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Uru » Sun May 19, 2019 3:35 pm

Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:43 pm
Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 pm
No, he actually thinks the reason they are fighting is the territory.
Sirius realizes the only reason Akakabuto and the dogs became enemies in the first place was when human and their pet dogs moved to the area.
The village of Higashinaruse was founded in 1889 (thanks, Wikipedia). Humans and dogs had been living in the area for at least a century before Akakabuto was even born, so if anything, he was encroaching on human territory.
It's actually mentioned in GNG-manga that the reason why people started to get worried about bear attacks was because they were building a road. So people started expand to bear terriroty. Before that few tourist who got eaten by bears seemed to be normal thing...
Traumatic past does not excuse terrible behavior. Monsoon ripped off Bob's sisters legs and left her that way, he killed his brothers in front of him, he pierced his jaw and swung him around like a fish or something. He's tortured defenseless puppies that never challenged him or tried to hurt him. He murdered Chibi's mother right in front of him and wanted to kill him too, and he supposedly had no hatred towards fellow bears, right?
Pretty much all Ohu army dogs got some traumatic past, but that doesn't make them evil. One thing is killing your enemies (this is war, Weed!), but torturing for fun is no way excusable. Even other villains, with the exception of Hougen, never did such thing. Yeah, Masamune tortured too, but that was for information not for fun. And Hougen, much like Monsoon, tortured others just for fun (Nero and John to name a few).
-mention of animal torture, might be disturbing-
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It's actually rather normal behaviour (torturing other animals etc) if you haven't experienced normal behaviour as a child. There was experiment called "The Pit of despair" where monkeys were experimented and tested how childhood trauma affects them. When monkeys later got babies they had no idea how to take care of them: for example they just ate their babies legs when they were bored. It's very disturbing research.
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So considering that Monsoon lived in enviroment where he had to kill his own siblings to survive, it's easy to understand that he was really dangerous and unstable. Monsoon also left his siblings to die so he never felt sympathy towards other bears. Only Sirius started to change that.
If you compare Monsoon's past (mother & father dead, all relatives slaughtered, has to kill own brothers to survive) I don't think there is any dog character who has gotten hurt so badly. Most of them have lost family, but have found new one or had siblings. Or they have lost their friends and family as adults.

I think most Ginga villains have tortured their victims at some point. P4 purposely didn't kill Jerome, but hurt him instead. Kamakiri drowned his owns soldier because he was in bad mood. Blue killed Hook's brother very painfully and kept Mer as slave & beat him up. Russian wardogs urinated on Ouu soldiers who were dying of thirst. Shogun played with his food before killing it.

I think if Monsoon was human, it would completly depend on country where he was how he would be treated. In USA, probably death sentence. In Finland I think he might get prison sentence, but might also be placed at mental hospital. Dogs at this moment have three options: killing Monsoon, leaving Monsoon alone or let Sirius handle the situation. I think it's biggest faults of TLW that there is no real reason why Gin and Weed won't listen to Sirius's idea. I mean, they could give him deadline or objective and if he and Monsoon won't be able to handle it, dogs would go to war. I mean, Weed has done it before: with Sniper, Weed went to help him and asked him few times if he wanted to be good guy or not. Sniper just wanted to murder Gin & everyone else so Weed drowned him in the river. It was seriously the first (only?) time when main character simply murdered his enemy in Ginga. Before Orion, of course.

Dogs -btw- assumed that Monsoon was there for revenge. It's mentioned few times in first volume.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Sun May 19, 2019 3:46 pm

Uru wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:35 pm
Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:43 pm
Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 pm
No, he actually thinks the reason they are fighting is the territory.
Sirius realizes the only reason Akakabuto and the dogs became enemies in the first place was when human and their pet dogs moved to the area.
The village of Higashinaruse was founded in 1889 (thanks, Wikipedia). Humans and dogs had been living in the area for at least a century before Akakabuto was even born, so if anything, he was encroaching on human territory.
It's actually mentioned in GNG-manga that the reason why people started to get worried about bear attacks was because they were building a road. So people started expand to bear terriroty. Before that few tourist who got eaten by bears seemed to be normal thing...
Okay, I forgot about that. My bad again.

Though didn't GDR kinda retcon that by making it clear that Akakabuto was an unusually aggressive and feared bear to begin with, even before the humans started building the road in his territory? :THOT:



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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Limonzy » Sun May 19, 2019 3:53 pm

Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:33 pm
Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:17 pm
Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:43 pm


The village of Higashinaruse was founded in 1889 (thanks, Wikipedia). Humans and dogs had been living in the area for at least a century before Akakabuto was even born, so if anything, he was encroaching on human territory.
The humans and the Village are not high in the mountain where Akakabuto lives. However, more hunters and winter tourist started to go deeper and deeper into the bears' territory.
Though, if I remember correctly, Akakabuto never wanted revenge on the dogs? They multiple times wrote how it hated Gohee and refused to sleep in the winter because of the thirst for revenge for the eye Gohee shot.
He didn't "refuse" to sleep in the winter, the damage to his central nervous system made him incapable of doing it.

Akakabuto wasn't really about revenge, he just wanted to establish his own territory in Futago Pass and didn't care who or what he had to kill in the process.

Also there's nothing in GNG suggesting that Akakabuto became aggressive because humans were suddenly showing up in his territory. GDR outright uses the wording that he "appeared" in Ohu one day, and he was already notorious enough in Aomori and Iwate to have his own names in the areas. So he was basically known for wreaking havoc in two separate prefectures before he appeared in Akita and started killing livestock there, so the humans of Ohu simply couldn't have wandered into his territory. Also the only source of the "Akakabuto was only evil because territory" claim is Sirius, who has no issues pulling facts out of his backside to "support" his arguments as seen in his infamous "Monsoon usually eats birds and rabbits" brainfart.

Ah yeah, I know Gohee's bullet damaged Akakabuto's brain but I remembered (most likely wrong), that they also gave it one of those "survive-with-willpower-alone" tropes Ginga is full of haha!
Akakabuto was definitely aggressive before and was fine killing anything and anyone but he really did hate Gohee. I think it's in the first volume where Riki and Gohee are trapped in the cave and stuff.. They have a few pages explaining how much Akakabuto hates the hunter and how mad it is that he wasn't able to kill Gohee.
In GNG they had to ban people from going to the mountain after Akakabuto killed Riki (and the 2 random people?? 1 was Hidetoshi's dad I think). I assumed Akakabuto hadn't been THAT big of a deal before this, since at the start of GNG Riki is already 8 years old.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Beastface » Sun May 19, 2019 5:01 pm

At this point, Sirius' and Monsoon's behavior reminds me a whole lot of the dynamics of domestic abuse. Monsoon acts violently out of an impulse, feels remorseful after hurting someone he cares about but deflects responsibility of it ("it wasn't me, it was my arm"). Meanwhile Sirius is willing to forgive absolutely everything and make excuses on his behalf because he feels he has an emotional connection to Monsoon that allows him to understand him unlike anyone else and is therefore able change him for the better, regardless of whether or not Monsoon actually shows any signs of being willing or able to change his behavior.

I don't know if it's what Yoshi is intentionally going for, but that's how I'm going to interpret it for now because it makes more sense to me that this is a portrayal of Sirius being another victim of Monsoon's abuse, rather than a misunderstood hero. Would explain why Gin, Weed and everyone else is so unsymphathetic towards Sirius's cause if even Yoshi thinks he's wrong.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Sun May 19, 2019 5:13 pm

Beastface wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:01 pm
At this point, Sirius' and Monsoon's behavior reminds me a whole lot of the dynamics of domestic abuse. Monsoon acts violently out of an impulse, feels remorseful after hurting someone he cares about but deflects responsibility of it ("it wasn't me, it was my arm"). Meanwhile Sirius is willing to forgive absolutely everything and make excuses on his behalf because he feels he has an emotional connection to Monsoon that allows him to understand him unlike anyone else and is therefore able change him for the better, regardless of whether or not Monsoon actually shows any signs of being willing or able to change his behavior.

I don't know if it's what Yoshi is intentionally going for, but that's how I'm going to interpret it for now because it makes more sense to me that this is a portrayal of Sirius being another victim of Monsoon's abuse, rather than a misunderstood hero. Would explain why Gin, Weed and everyone else is so unsymphathetic towards Sirius's cause if even Yoshi thinks he's wrong.
...I can't believe I've never made that observation myself, despite my need to apparently come up with a negative explanation for everything that Sirius does and the fact that I often point out cycle of abuse when talking about Teru's dad and why him apologizing to Teru before his death is pointless.

I assume that wasn't Yoshi's intention and we're just supposed to be sympathizing with Sirius, but now that you've pointed it out I can't unsee it.



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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken » Sun May 19, 2019 5:43 pm

Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 pm
Shining Sirius wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:30 pm
Limonzy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 1:17 pm
I just want to point out that none of the dogs knows the real reason Monsoon attacked Ohu.
All the dogs think it's because he is Akakabuto's kin, "an aggressive bloodhungry bear from birth".
I can't remember if Monsoon told Sirius.. but I'm pretty sure the Ohu army or at least Gin and Weed would act differently if they knew Monsoon wanted revenge on them for murdering his mother and siblings.
Sirius knows - he stated early on into the volumes that the old soldiers committing genocide against the bears is the reason why Monsoon is the way he is (which provokes Orion into calling him disrespectful - pot and kettle much?). I think that the rest of the army who've heard the legend of Gin and Akakabuto are aware of Monsoon's history... they just don't care because he's a bear, not a dog. Actually, come to think of it, none of the Ohu army particularly cared when they heard Hougen and Genba's traumatic backstory either. :|
No, he actually thinks the reason they are fighting is the territory.
Sirius realizes the only reason Akakabuto and the dogs became enemies in the first place was when human and their pet dogs moved to the area.
Nobody ever mentions Monsoon's trauma?

With Hougen and Gemba.. The Ohu dogs take pride in their relationships with their comrades. Even though Hougen and Gemba's life was horriblöe in the cage, the Ohu army would have probably chosen to die together. So they think what the Great Dane brothers did was dishonorable.
One thing is invading Ohu, but another thing, which I absolutely see no excuse for, is the way he's tortured Bob, his siblings, how he kills other bears without any need or hate against them, and how he really only views dogs as food or playthings. Sirius included.
He does not see Sirius as someone he cares about. He does not. He simply finds him entertaining. The only reason he at first came to listen to him, was because he looks like Gin, meaning he thought of him as non-threatening (unlike other dogs, including Gin himself hah), and thus he enjoys his company, but that is not true friendship or anything close to resembling. Sirius is his pet.
The tragic of Sirius's fate is that he died defending the wrong cause, misled by his own clouded mind. When other soldiers died, they did it for good cause that they completely understood and were aware of the full situation. Sirius wasn't, and that is terribly sad. :(

Uru wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:35 pm
If you compare Monsoon's past (mother & father dead, all relatives slaughtered, has to kill own brothers to survive) I don't think there is any dog character who has gotten hurt so badly. Most of them have lost family, but have found new one or had siblings. Or they have lost their friends and family as adults.

I think most Ginga villains have tortured their victims at some point. P4 purposely didn't kill Jerome, but hurt him instead. Kamakiri drowned his owns soldier because he was in bad mood. Blue killed Hook's brother very painfully and kept Mer as slave & beat him up. Russian wardogs urinated on Ouu soldiers who were dying of thirst. Shogun played with his food before killing it.


@ to no dog actually being hurt the same way as Monsoon: Kyoushiro. He lost his siblings and parents at very young age.

@ to Ginga villains torturing others: Sure, they've all done that, but their victims were all their enemies. They weren't helpless servants who stood loyal to them and begged for mercy. None of them. In Blue's case, he just gutted him, that's a pretty fast death. Either way, all of those characters had a more or less reason to do what they did. All their victims had resisted at some point. Monsoon and Bob & co is the only exception, thus making the bear's actions truly diabolical and uncalled for.

EDIT: Kamakiri executed the soldier for refusing to attack their enemies (a very common thing irl to do in past wars actually).
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Uru » Sun May 19, 2019 6:38 pm

Digsu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:46 pm
Though didn't GDR kinda retcon that by making it clear that Akakabuto was an unusually aggressive and feared bear to begin with, even before the humans started building the road in his territory? :THOT:
If I remember correctly, they were fine with Akakabuto being in the forrest as no one went there anyway. The reason why Gohee started hunting him was that Akakabuto had killed cows. It's not normal for black bears, but brown bears might do that.
@ to no dog actually being hurt the same way as Monsoon: Kyoushiro. He lost his siblings and parents at very young age.

@ to Ginga villains torturing others: Sure, they've all done that, but their victims were all their enemies. They weren't helpless servants who stood loyal to them and begged for mercy. None of them. In Blue's case, he just gutted him, that's a pretty fast death. Either way, all of those characters had a more or less reason to do what they did. All their victims had resisted at some point. Monsoon and Bob & co is the only exception, thus making the bear's actions truly diabolical and uncalled for.

EDIT: Kamakiri executed the soldier for refusing to attack their enemies (a very common thing irl to do in past wars actually).
Kyoshiro was adopted and taken care of before his parents and siblings died. Also if you look at Kyoshiro: he was total hulligan, killed and tortured adults until Weed arrived. Rocket was afraid of him and Hougen planned to assasinate Kyoshiro as he was so dangerous.

Isn't being helpless the most important part when you are talking about torturing something? It really doesn't matter if you are torturing your friend, wife or enemy, but the point is that other one is helpless and can't fight back. I honestly don't think there is very big difference between Monsoon torturing Bob for fun or Shogun eating monkey babies & puppies, Kamakiri drowning his soldier etc. I -btw- checked manga and Kamakiri drowned the soldier because he was angry, not because the dog was running away or something. (It might have been different in anime, thought.) Kamakiri had tortured the previous owner of territory badly: bitten of his legs etc.

If you compare Kamakiri and Monsoon, Monsoon punished Bob when he lied or tried to run away. Kamakiri killed one of his soldies because Weed run away and he was angry.

And gutting is very painful death. You can live for days unless the bloodvessels are torn and even if it is "fast" it takes easily hours to bleed out. Few characters in Ginga have survived gutting and John lived many days even thought his insides were hanging out.

I think Monsoon and Sirius are very interesting as you can make so many asumptions about them: Is Monsoon really changing? Is he just playing with Sirius? I do believe that at some point Monsoon thought that Sirius was just his new toy, but I also think that later Monsoon got confused and started to change his mind. I can understand that Monsoon calls Sirius toy at the beginning etc. because he is afraid what will happen if he trust's Sirius too much...

I personnally think that Monsoon was changing: he tried his best to save Sirius and didn't attack dogs at the end. He was just trying to run away. Would he had stayed that way or would he started attacking dogs again? It's very difficult to say. I think it would have taken Monsoon years to start behave normally and I don't think he would have started to trust any other dogs than Sirius.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Akame » Sun May 19, 2019 10:52 pm

I think that uhh...Sirius' ideals are well-meaning and in a lot of ways pretty heroic in the world he's in- but they're incredibly short-sighted and dismissive of the literal evil things that Monsoon has done to his friends.

Not AT ALL saying that killing children is okay here- but it's not excusable to pull the legs off an innocent dog 😑 I mean I like the dynamic between Sirius, Monsoon and Orion (though I don't think it's really written that well, like a lot of Ginga it's more interesting based on fan interpretation...) but the basis for argument on Sirius side is a LITTLE BIT bull crap.

Obviously fighting fire with fire is pointless, but I mean C'MON, one dog kIlled your siblings, another stopped it before it killed you. That same dog that saved you killed your dad. Okay, that's a lot. Maybe you get a revenge complex just like the one that ended in your dad's death and go after those 2 dogs. You don't start hunting them relentlessly and eating them not for nutrition but to feel good (ew), torturing them without restraint, enslaving them etc. and random ones at that-- not even the ones you hate. Just any old dog.

I really don't think Monsoon is redeemable.

Sirius could have tried harder too for sure if he had attempted he probably could have taught some basic bear language to the others so they could see for themselves if they wanted to forgive Monsoon-- not that they owe him that after he murdered a bunch of their loved ones and friends 😞
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Atha » Sun May 19, 2019 11:24 pm

Uru wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 6:38 pm
Also if you look at Kyoshiro: he was total hulligan, killed and tortured adults until Weed arrived. Rocket was afraid of him and Hougen planned to assasinate Kyoshiro as he was so dangerous.
Kyoushiro was a hooligan and dangerous but he wasn't just running around killing adults. He was hunting down child abusers and, as we saw with Teru's dad, let them live as long as they never returned to the child's life, as he stopped his pack from killing Teru's dad and gave him a restraining order. Once the restraining order was defied, then it was killing time, for the sake of protecting the abused kids.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by fantachan » Mon May 20, 2019 12:06 am

Pardon the interuption, but chapter 170 is now up.
https://fantasscans.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... r-170.html

Wow, Monsoon's really putting his foot down.

...I'll leave. XD
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Dragon » Mon May 20, 2019 1:07 am

Lol yeah okay, Gin's ttly gonna die
oh wait this is Ginga, HE'S IMMORTAL.
I never understood why they make characters put up the effort of distracting the enemy , just to yell while doing the surprise attack. Is it for honor of not attacking from behind? It's still a surprise. Doesn't give you any higher moral ground, just make you look kinda dumb.

But man, poor Siriu's body. So abused
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